Iginla is a Penguin. So is Morrow and Murray. The Pens needed toughness and grit and added that, plus leadership and scoring, only giving up a draft picks and mediocre prospects in return.
Impressive, to say the least. This means two things.
First, the Pens have to be favorites to win the Cup this year and that makes little Gary have a halfie.
Second, even if this doesn’t work out, Shero has clearly surpassed Holland as the best GM in the league.
I don’t think the Wings should mortgage their future to win now. But changes have to be made. Something. Anything.
Hit the jump for more.
The team is decent. Considering the loss of Lidstrom and a rash of injuries that only prophets could have foretold, they are doing surprisingly well.
But are they a serious Cup contender? My heart, through its Wing tinted glasses (yeah, that anlogy doesn’t work here, but go with it) says yes. But my brain knows better. This team is good, but isn’t in the premier group with the Pens, Bruins, Hawks, Kings and Ducks. They are a slight step down with a bunch of other teams.
They’ve been on this same, slightly downward slope since 2009. Holland and Babbles have done everything they can to keep the train on the tracks, but those tracks are going down this slope and we’ve gotten farther and farther away from our goal. During this time, Kenny has sat pat, expecting different results each year despite fielding the same players. I think they have a word for that…
Remember 1997? The Wings had a good team. Just had set a record for most wins in a season but couldn’t get it done in the playoffs. So what did they do? Changed it up. Keith Primeau AND Paul Coffey for Brendan Shanahan. That changed the entire feel and complexion of the team – reenergizing them to bring home 2 consecutive Cups that I don’t know would have been won otherwise.
If Holland was in charge, would Shanny have made his way to the Wings? I honestly don't know.
Ken Holland hasn’t done a damn thing to aggressively seek a Cup since he lost Hossa in ‘09. And by doing nothing, he’s let the talents of Datsyuk, Zetterberg and the last four years of Lidstrom go to waste.
That scares me. I do think the team could be a contender without having to rebuild. But that is going to require Kenny thinking outside of the box a little bit.
We have always lived by the manta that “In Kenny We Trust.” Our patience is getting dangerously close to running out.
the wings are letting the young guys mature right now. The Wings aren't one or two players away from a cup right now. They are an elite defensemen a true sniper and one more good penalty killer away from really threatening to win a cup. Those players are not available for a realistic price. Im not willing to trade away Sproul Nyquist Tatar and probably one or two other players away to be contenders right now. Also the cap is about to go down a lot next season and the wings arent able to spend a lot with raises coming to Howard(rumored around 5 mil a year for 6 years from what ive heard) and Filp probably getting between 4 and 5. I haven't done the capgeek stuff on it yet but Shero can be aggressive because he is one player away from a cup right now. The wings are probably 3 players away and you can't get all that now. Holland went after suter and parise and he couldnt get them the same way Shero couldnt get Parise. Holland does however have 3 cups to his name and many many successes with developing players and drafting well and doing things that other gms(like shero) dont. Shero is playing with a team that has 3 top 2 picks on it (Crosby went 1 Fleury went 1 and Malkin went 2) the wings highest drafted player is Kindl at 19 overall....
Is everyone forgetting that we are in the playoffs? And to fall out of the playoffs we would have to play below .500 hockey for the rest of the season. We have won 5 out of our past 6. We are on the verge of sweeping a West Coast trip. We swept the #2 team in the league in their own barn. And we don't even have Helm back. I think Kenny is right to be patient, we honestly don't need anything outside a #2 D-man and one more second line scorer, who we can get back from injury....maybe. Trade deadline is next week, I can't wait to see the reactions when we don't make a move.
"Holland and Babbles have done everything they can to keep the train on the tracks"
Nah. Holland's done absolutely nothing to improve the team. They've been on a steady downslope for a few years. Holland didn't replace Rafalski. He didn't make any preparations for Lidstrom's departure. He didn't replace Stuart. He hasn't addressed the scoring issues the team has had since Hossa left.
Babcock's got an injury-riddled team that was mediocre when it was healthy deep in the playoff hunt.
They can do a little bit. I'd say try and get Bowmeester. Not a bad defensive defenseman. Also hungry for a cup. Plus judging from the way the Pens got Iginla for a first round and two half ass prospects, Bowmeester shouldn't be that hard to acquire. I do think Holland needs to step up and get the balls he had in 01-02. In jeopardy of losing Datsyuk soon, the wings are gonna need some temporary talent as is, this can be done without sacrificing too many prospects. Besides if you risk nothing you gain nothing.
He may be able to work some magic with prospects. I can live without either Paterson OR Mrazek. Get rid of Jurco OR Sheahan. We do a good enough job of poaching gems overseas or in free agency. Maybe that with some picks can get something done for Yandle. But I'd rather stand pat and work with draft picks and prospects than overpay for someone like Bouwmeester. (Just my 2 pennies)
I think Holland is just being patient. We really don't have the pieces to make the moves the Pens did. Plus the Pens are going for broke this season, they will lose almost every player they have traded for and still might have to cut down the roster to fit in the new cap. I think Holland knew this was going to be an up and down season (no one can predict injuries like this). I think we will see our big move in the offseason once teams need to fit in the cap. Plus a trade for Yandle still isn't out of the question this season although we would be paying dearly. Let's be honest, how many people thought we were cup contenders this year? I would be happy with keeping the playoff streak alive. Get our young guns some postseason experience. When this team grows up, we will be contenders and that may be sooner than you think.
That's the problem, there is nothing you can do unless you want to just trade off all the prospects and young guys for people who "will do better,I super swear, for real this time, no backsies" and then possibly become the Flames 2.0. Holland did fuck up though, Lidstrom's replacement is years from being NHL ready, and all we can do is hope the young guys step up and perform as great as we said they would. If I believed the Red Wings had a chance for the cup then I would say go out there and get someone, but they are just not in that kind of position right now.
Yeah, but the city didn't have over 50% of its population move out within a 10 year time frame. I mean, what is Kenny supposed to do? Do you want him to trade Ian White and a third round pick for Steven Stamkos or Alex Ovechkin? It's never going to happen. There's no way he can make any substantial moves without having to mortgage the future. Datysuk is going back to Russia after next season, and Hank will be 34 years old by then. It's not worth parting with potential all-stars in Jarnkrok, Tatar and perhaps Jurco if it means getting a rental. I'd rather the team stay the course and stick to Kenny's philosophy of trying to continue to make the Playoffs while turning the roster over into a newer and younger core.
I'm gonna laugh when the Pens choke. Not to mention lose half their team when it comes time to resign.
@marti783 Are you joking?
Minnesota Cap situation: 2013-14: http://capgeek.com/wild
Ryan Suter's season: http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/stats/byposition?pos=D
2nd in D scoring, leads league in ice-time.
I'd also like to point ou that the Wild are 3rd in the conference and have beaten us twice this season.
Are people really going to start bitching about how he didn't get Iginla now? The Red Wings are not buyers, getting Iginla would have not made them cup contenders, and they are in a sort of "Rebuilding Phase" now. Just be patient and let the young guys pan out. It's a good thing none of you people are GM's.
I will say this, though, I think the Wings, should they continue on this nice winning streak, should attempt to make a move for Yandle at the trade deadline. If the Merrow and Iginla deals have showed us anything, it's that you don't need to give up a whole lot to get a ton of value in return. I wouldn't mind parting with Nyquist if it landed us Yandle.
I think seeing these recent trades has really put things in perspective. Prices are not as high as everyone thinks, and for the right pieces you can pay next to nothing if you're smart. The Iginla trade completely emphasizes that point.
The Wings NEED to do something, and going out and signing wasted roster spaces to people like Sammy was not what I had in mind. I also think that Mrazek should be backup, Gustavsson is not needed, nor is he up to the task of stepping into Jimmy's skates if he goes down. I'm sick of the mediocre moves and bargain basement signings.
No doubt Shero is the best GM in hockey right now. I think Holland has just gotten way too comfortable with the current roster of people. Year in and year out, his one response at the trade deadline has been, "I like our team." There is some definite truth to the idea that the talents of Z and Dats have been wasted however, let's put this into perspective...
Since the '04 lockout, the league has been increasingly more competitive with each passing season. The Wings reached their peak in '09 and eventually became victims of the salary cap. The expectation of multiple cups in a hard salary cap sport is perhaps a little unrealistic. Look at other elite teams around the league, Pittsburgh has won only ONE playoff series since winning the cup in '09. Also, Shero has the benefit of having a safety net that includes, Crosby, Malkin, Fleury, and at one time Staal (all either no. 1 or no. 2 overall picks), AND they were all under the age of 21. So if he made a mistake with either a draft pick or a trade, he still has some of the best young talent on the planet to fall back on.
Like I said, Shero is the best GM in hockey right now and Holland can definitely be faulted for sitting on his hands HOWEVER, I still want to give him a chance to redeem himself as the new salary cap is rolled out because I truly think he can and will.
"Ken Holland hasn’t done a damn thing to aggressively seek a Cup since he lost Hossa in ‘09. And by doing nothing, he’s let the talents of Datsyuk, Zetterberg and the last four years of Lidstrom go to waste." -- Right. Because Kenny TOTALLY didn't try and offer the same sweet package deals to both Parise and Suter in the offseason just like every other team. Hell, even Illitch himself got involved to try and make this happen. Kenny is still an extraordinary GM, and the fact that so many fans now take his smarts for granted really pisses me off. When are people going to wake up and face the fact that 'premiere' players don't want to play here right now? It's a dying economy. A terrible city. And the team itself is stuck in limbo. The best thing Kenny CAN do is continue to build through the draft to make this transition run as smoothly as possible.
Agreed. Not saying he should start offering up Nyquist and Tatar in deals but Pav is 34 with 1 year left on his deal, Z is 31, Kronner is 30. We don't have that many years left where we can take advantage of these generational talents while they're still playing at this level. I still think we blew it in the off season when we undercut Parise and had to go and up our offer to Suter. Yes I think they're a tad overpaid but we were promised an aggressive offseason and all we're left with is an aging core and a 2nd tier contender. Not sure this team can get it done over 4 rounds.
@JOHNxJOHN The rest of the season is not that many games. One more 5 game slide and we're finished. Pretty much everyone is in that boat but there's only 5 points between us (6th) and 9th.
@JOHNxJOHN "We really don't have the pieces to make the moves the Pens did."
Yes we do. Pittsburgh's picks, as of right now, are later in the round that Detroit's picks, and Detroit has many, many overripening prospects in the AHL, the CHL and Europe.
They could absolutely make deals.
@JOHNxJOHN But we aren't really getting enough of our young guns enough experience. 10 game stints on the 4th Line that still produce solid should not result in being sent down. I'd be happy with where we are at this season if Andersson, Nyquist, Tatar, Smith, and Lashoff were ALL getting the full time spots on scoring lines (with the exception of Andersson on the 3rd). Keep in mind our "young guns" are entering what the rest of the league calls the "prime" or "mid-career" phase based on age.
MIN will need to do a lot of resigning. Aside from Van they're in a weak division, and it's also a shortened season. It's too hard to speculate now how good any team will be down the line.
@Reddy They rented Iginla for essentially the same price we got Quincey (the two unsigned draftees being the difference).
@marti783 Yeah this new cap (plus an actual full season) will show everyone's true colours.
@DetCapC19 I agree more needs/needed to be done, but the Parise/Suter deals will cripple Minnesota for years to come mark my words. Noone is going to get 10mil per anymore.
@garth Completey missed the point there Garth, the Wings were not on Iggy's list.
@garth What made the Pens trade happen was Iggy. Calgary wanted to ship him to Boston. Do we really want Murray? My answer is no. Did we need Morrow? Once again no. Any move Holland makes is going to be for something big (Yandle sized).
@ThroatShot I would rather see Tatar on the 3rd line. He has the ability to score 2nd line numbers from the 3rd line. I do think Nyquist should be up higher but Babs doesn't. I think we might see a move that opens up some space for him up top because he has had a good showing past few games.
@DetCapC19 I'll take back my implication that he wasn't having a good year because I only saw his stats early in the year when he wasn't doing well but it looks like he turned it around. But I still still they're going to be up against it over the next two years. Hell, Kronwall has 3 less points them him and is making like 3M/yr less!
Agreed, it's too tough to speculate but they've got a good core and have some good young prospects/players to grow with (Grandlund and Brodin to name 2). I like where this team is at.
@ThroatShot Exactly, and who would you rather have? I'd rather have Iginla for a few months than Quincey for a few years.
@Reddy @marti783 I think Holland has had plenty of years to show his true colors. He inherited a winning system, and then let the hand play itself. It worked for a while, but the parity and retirements have made riding the wave impossible any more. KH has done nothing useful as a GM for a long time, and I"ve been saying for a couple seasons now he needs to be moved along. I wish we'd have cut ties when we had the chance and promoted Yzerman...
@Reddy I don't know Reddy. $7.5MM cap hits for 2 franchise (or semi-franchise players) seems to be a good rate. And it's not like they don't have the cap space still. The Wild have like $13MM in space this summer and not a lot of work to do.
@ThroatShot It seems to me Holland is shopping Tatar and Nyquist, I bet one of them isn't a RedWing this time next year.
@JOHNxJOHN Even if we call it Line 1 or 2 or 3 or 4, that doesn't matter to me with these young guys. What they need are minutes (Tatar and Nyquist both get shortchanged heavily, usually lowest on the team) and the ability to be on the ice with players they can learn from. Tatar had the best points-per-minute stat on the team when he was up with us, so yes, he can score from the Bottom 6. That is fine for now, but it isn't helping us at all with him in the next year or ten years later; rather, it's hindering his development. He and the others I mentioned are the future of the team, and given who has been playing high this season, I believe they should be the present too.
@marti783 Agreed that Kronner is a much better value. However, 1. he wasn't a UFA and 2. Suter is 3 years younger and has more upside. Now, as mentioned earlier, I'm not suggeting that Suter is worth the money (I did say he was overpaid) but you don't get a lot of opportunitites to get guys like Suter and Parise for no assets and continue to give your team a chance to win both now and in the future.
With respect to Minny's cap situation next year, look at the guys they have to replace. The biggest need will be their goalie who won't get $6MM next season. They're in good shape next year and per the CBA, the cap will never be lower than $64MM.
@DetCapC19 It's nearly a quarter of their cap taken up by two players, neither of whom has lived up to the hype and both have disappeared from the limelight since they were signed (to the place with the worst colour scheme in the history of any team including the old Canucks jerseys).