The folks over at the great Production Line blog makes an interesting claim. Did Kenny simply not offer enough for the two FAs? Is Detroit's allure gone?
Not elite squads, but very good ones. So why, then, does Holland continue down this path? He lowballed Ryan Suter, frankly, with 13 years at $80 million, and had to come up to $90 million just to stay in the conversation. Except Suter ended up signing for 13 years at $98 million. How the hell is that being aggressive in free agency? No, we’ve seen this before. That’s the move where Holland throws out a number but reminds you that “Hey, we’re Detroit, remember?” No, Ken, nobody remembers. These kids don’t care about that.
What Zach Parise and Ryan Suter care about are the following: their lifestyles, their family, being the top dogs on the team and making some money. But when Ken Holland’s “increased” offer falls $8 million short of a defenseman they “desperately” need – and one they’ve probably tried to sell the whole “mystique” argument to – there’s a real big problem in the room, and quite frankly it’s not Suter or Parise.That's a good point. To stay a team which attracts free agents, we need to be able to have the best here already. Whether you paid $6.9 a year or $7.5 a year isn't going to be that big a deal, but it might have been enough to get Suter in the red and white.
Hit the jump for more, plus a video that might make up for this morning's sadness.
That being said, just because we didn't get these two doesn't mean we won't end up sitting pretty at the end of this. Carle, Doan, and Semin are still out there which can do 95% of those two at lessor prices.
But I don't think Kenny can completely lowball 'em either. It's a fine line that Kenny will have to find. And a guy with the will to win, unlike the guys this morning.
And, by the way, watching these two Russians playing together wouldn't be too bad either.
Good luck with the lazy ass Semin. The best thing about that clip was the fact that the only reason Semin was there for the Datsyuk pass was because he wasn't getting his ass back. I'm sure Babcock will be super happy with his defensive prowess and his 20 goals a year.
Ok... I'm going on a rant here so warning is in order.
These Superstars that the Wings needed are only 27 years old. This happens to be the same age as myself...What does that have to do with anything you ask?
I lived through watching the Red Wings Golden years and I still remember very little of the actual story line. The two cups in the 90's were exciting, but didn't make much sense at only 11-12 years old. In 2002 I was too busy chasing tail to care...even though we had playoff parties they were simply a means to convince our parents that we should invite every female over.
Bottom line. I can promise that I know much more about the Red Wing's past than Parise or Suter do. These guys don't care any longer. Sure, They know there is a storied past and wearing the Wheel still means something. But it doesn't lure players any longer.
We all knew that an era of Red Wing's hockey died when Lidstrom retired. I can't help but recognized that he got out right at the time where the Wing's needed the money. And the guy who was suppose to retire along side Lidstrom is still here and doesn't recognize that the nostalgia of his team is largely gone with the younger players.
I don't trust in Holland any longer. I don't look down on him as the mentality he carries is a proven winner. But in the cap era it can also create a big loser. We are nothing but one of 30 teams. Players like to think they are going to a team that has the best chance at winning but I am reasonable sure I didn't see hordes of players lining up to go to LA. Hell, even Tampa won a cup. No one knows.
This mentality doesn't work any longer. We all discuss salary hit and overpaying for players, sure, it means a lot but overpaying for a player is better than not paying for a good one at all.
What is cap space for?
1. Saving the owner money and making profits.
2. Finding a player at the deadline to help in the playoffs.
I don't like either of those two. Cap space should be filled with players that make your team great all year long. If you don't use it you most likely don't win. Don't throw exceptions out there as they are few and far between.
I think Ken Holland is the greatest GM in league history... I do. But I do not think he is the best option for the team any longer. While his supposed replacement is in Tampa and making all the right moves Holland has signed 3 bottom six forwards and lost a HELL of a lot more.
The tides have turned. The Wing's are no longer an elite team (sorry to burst bubbles). There are far more teams more capable of winning the cup that Detroit is. Is it possible? Hell yeah... with the right decisions from the management... and that means spending some big fricken dollars and taking risks.
If we ain't gonna do that then please do screw with the fans and just sell it all out and start from scratch. Trade our best for some first round picks and more. I'm ready. Lets just get this damn rebuild started. Dead Wings or not I will be here.
If those 2 won't make a team awesome then why would we, and everyone be so anxious to get them? They will make the Wild a lot better, they have koivu and heatley who's over rated but still good. Clutterbucks always the top 5 in hits in the league, they will be damn good even in goal tending. We learned that last season when they beat us 3 outta 4 times ! I jsut don't care cause their greedy and asking for way too much. We can't be mad at kenny either cause it was outta his control. Parise was gonna play there or new jersey, if hed of picked new jersey we might of got Suter. But it didn't happen. Just glad I didn't get my hopes up lol
Im not to hurt over it. Seems like they are going to be over payed on a team thats not so great. Two good players wont make then awesome by any means.
Watching Dats and Semin together is like watching Gretzky and Kurri together, except better defensively and with double the dangle.
I think Chris is onto something. Parise said that it was important that him and Suter made the same amount and apparently we were way off on the money offered to Parise (we offered Suter more). We know that Minny and NJ were the final 2 for Parise and Minny and Detroit were the final 2 for Suter. If we had offered more to Parise, would we have been team #3 on his shortlist? Would that have convinced both to sign here?
I get the impression that we were #1 on Suter's list but the allure of playing with Parise and Parise not having Detroit on his shortlist is what probably shifted Suter towards Minny.
Not overly concerned right now, but after losing Lidstrom and having Suter come up as a Free Agent, the timing will never be better than it was this summer.
Yea I think this is being looked at the wrong way. If he wanted to win, wanted to play for detroit (suter that is) then he would have. 8 million shouldn't make a difference, not when ur gonna be 10 million shy of 100 million fucking dollars. 1 tenth of a Billion dollars. But 8 million makes a difference ? Fuck him and his greed, that's ridiculous. Karlsson had 25 points more then any other d man, and he's only getting 6.5 mill a year, he has more assists then suter had points and he has about 8 more years of hockey then suter does, suters never even been a Norris nominee. Idc that we didn't get him either. They can both rot in minn. http://m.facebook.com/DatsyuksDekesAndDangles?refid=7&ref=pymk&_ft_=qid.5727292443868558042%3Amf_story_key.1732961009924452101 Let's get Semin
U want to pay suter 98 mil for 13years? You guys r smoking something. Everyones getting WAY overpaid this FA. Hey chris bob, not a panic move if you can get their name right,.....its semin, not ejaculate.
I would love to see Semin signed to us. I know a lot has been said about his motivation etc, but let's face it, he hasn't been given the incentive. Not only that, but Babs won't take any of his shit. His has the skill, so offer him something decent, but not so long that he won't have to work (a la Franzen). Say, 3 years. I want at least one of the big three FAs signed and I think Semin could turn out alright in our system.
This whole thing about losing allure is BS. These players were obviously wanting to play together from the start ("I won't sign til he does" - Suter) and wanted to be close to family, and basically lead the easy life. Detroit hasn't lost allure just because it failed to get what was essentially a duet of players who wouldn't part.
Another interesting take on this same issue from the Freep.
Haven't seen a single "In Kenny we trust" comment, tweet, or post... He's already made four solid additions and got rid of happy, sorry Chris. He has all summer in the sense of there are a lot of options out there to consider. I for one am not looking for instant gratification on this matter, so the wings lost out on some some talent... Hope the mild can finally become competitive, as for the wings? Well... They'll find a way, just like they have for the last couple of decades. LGRW!
Semin should have been plan 1B from the beginning, trading for Bobby Ryan 1C. So we missed Suter...Carle and trading stilling an option.
Kenny says "We have all summer now" and "we may have to rely on some of our kids". Does that mean he's finished and sitting on his hands again? Did having Stevie out manage him on the Salo deal shut him down? Is he done? There are still FAs out there who could help the Wings get back on top! Is he going to let them go elsewhere too?
You're young .. you only remember what has happened in your very short history. You think this is the first time that the Red Wings have slid from glory? Hardly. After all the success of the 40s and 50s they fell on the hard times of the 60s and 70s and 80s .. The Dead Things and Darkness With Harkness. My point is that it has hapened before. I stuck with them through all of that .. that's what Wings fans do. We still criticize and want improvement and above all we want a Cup winner. It's hard to categorize anyone as the best GM in league history based on such a short period of service. It's a small sampling of a very long time. I criticize Holland for his handling of the last 4 or 5 years because he keeps doing the same things over and over, Expecting to get a different outcome. The team continues to decline each year. His best players are retiring and getting older and he does not seem to know how to stop the leak and right the ship. I do not have confidence in the prospects because they are a crop of draftees much the same as what we have. They were not successful in Grand Rapids or Toledo so how are they going to be ready to come to the NHL? Granted the last few draft crops have had fewer skaters and passers and more shooters and hitters but those kids are 5 years away. What is Kenny doing to enrich this team in the meantime? Not much .. just more of the same .. ex-Wings, retreads, reclamation projects and hoping some miracle wll fall in his lap. His effort and system scares me!
@garth Man you're dark... You wouldn't happen to be listening to This Mortal Coil, It'll End in Tears, while you comment are you?
@DetCapC19 When we're offering 90million and they take 98million, I wouldn't say that was way off. My thoughts are this is the way it was going to be regardless of any offers from anyone but minnesota.
@Reddy Hasn't been given incentive? What incentive would he have in Detroit?
@Reddy I don't see the Wings doing well at all this year if they don't pick up a guy like Semin. If Franzen is your best goal scorer they may as well offload some salary to pay for Prince Fielder and a new arena.
@Reddy Seriously man, I totally agree. Semins work ethic worries me but if we can get him at a decent price I'd be happy. As for losing our allure? What crap! We lost two guys to BIGGER contracts and one is from Minn and the others wife is from Minn (I think). These people need to remove their heads from their butts. Losing these two guys had nothing to do with losing our allure.
@D.M.N Four solid additions? Brunner is a nothing, he might only be playing in the NHL next year because "Kenny" couldn't lure a single top-six NHL forward to Detroit. Gustavsson is fine, but he's a backup. Tootoo is fine too, but his contract guarantees that if Holland DOES want to keep Abdelkader he'll have to overpay. Samuelsson? Wow, good signing if he's playing third line, but the problem is that Holland lost a borderline top-six forward, meaning that right now we have ONE top-four defenseman and four top-six forwards.
He has done nothing to address any of the honest-to-god needs we have. He's added a maybe-NHLer and two more f*cking bottom-six forwards so that now we have, what, 10 bottom-sixers on the roster?
In Kenny We Trust my ass.
@D.M.N I'm not trying to argue with the additions he has made singly or as a whole. I think the problem is that people feel like KH keeps trying to do the same thing over and over when it isn't working (signing old people and praying we get lucky in the late rounds). Tootoo may have been a bit of an aberration from that, but that isn't much of a splash- more like sticking your pinky toe in the shallow end to test the temperature.
I, for one, trust in Kenny... until the pre-season. Then, we'll see what the roster looks like and make a new judgment.
I'd be okay with Semin on a one or two year deal, and for absolutely no more then $5 per season, and even that's pushing it. I also think Tampa overpaid for both Salo and Carle, so I don't really think Steve 'out managed' Kenny in that respect. Tampa also has a pretty weak crop of d-men outside of Hedman. I like both Salo and Carle, but neither for the money they're getting paid. Tampa can keep them.
@BossWolf Basically what I am coming to grips with is that I will actually for the first time see a Wing's team that is not competitive unless Holland makes some big moves.
If we are just going to keep the team as is, which largely means uncompetitive, I would rather they start a dismantling and rebuilding with draft picks.
The reason I say that Ken Holland is the greatest is that having such consistent success in a cap era is darn hard, but he did it. But I think the end of the dynasty has come. I'm ready for it.
I just don't want to see this mediocrity crap if its going to mean that we keep shopping high draft picks for one or two small pieces that amount to no greater success. And if we are going to rely on some of the younger guys, its time for the Wing's to stop holding back the young kids. Throw some promising draft picks into the NHL right away. Trial by fire has worked wonders for some guys. If your team isn't that good anyway why not give them a shot.
Just wait until Datsyuk signs somewhere else in a couple years.
@Reddy $90M was our offer to Suter not Parise. If I were a betting man, I'd guess that we offered $80m to Parise. I know for a fact that we offered less to him than we did to Suter (per Helen St. James). Not saying it came down to money but I don't think we went as hard after Parise as we should have.
@garth The likelihood of actually winning a cup?
@garth Awesome fan right here.
@garth Wanna come over and kick my dog while your at it? Just trying to find a ray of light during this dark summer I guess. 100 or so more days till start finding out who's right I suppose.
@JaysinHorror OK but the thing is, Steve Yzerman made his team better. The days of the Wings getting a deal on any in the free agent market are over. Paying market value is not overpaying. Carle at $5.5M is brings us more points than Lidstrom had. Obviously he's not a replacement for Lidstrom, but he's a top-four defenseman, and we really only have one of those right now, in Kronwall. White is borderline, because he had his second best year ever but he did so playing with the best defenseman ever as his partner. Who knows what he does this year without Lidstrom at his side?
@DetCapC19 I think we went after him exactly as hard as he deserved. As it is now, the Wild have wasted a ton of money on players that will be over 30 by the time their team is competative because it will have to rely heavily on it's prospects due to having no money!
@garth I think in 2010 it was perfectly possible but we were screwed by officiating, and in 2011 again I genuinely think if we had made it past the sharks we could've gone all the way. But without Lidstrom it'll be a whole other game. Maybe someone will step up to the plate and it'll be a good year. (Thats the optimist in me speaking, the pessimist is being very noisy though and I'm trying to ignore him).
@Reddy In 2008 or 2009 maybe...
@garth Mind you having said that...
@Tnhgeno Should I be sucking the dick of Lord Kenny when he's done not a single thing to improve the team?
I said I stuck with them through the 60s, 70s and 80s hard times. I was born in 40s. They weren't even televised until 53 or 54 and that was from CKLW-9 in Windsor. Only got to see them on HNIC. Hard to get Channel 9 out in Northville on rabbit ears - awful snowy in black & white. Picture came in but sound didn't so I watched the old Philco TV and listened to games on WJR with a crystal radio. Started being a fan arond 7 or 8 yrs. old. I was only joking about canceling Centre Ice. It's called "exageration to make a point", sorry you didn't get it. Not 70 yet, sonny. I'll still be cheering from my Hover Round, though.
@BossWolf @JaysinHorror @garth In your previous post you said you hung with the wings since the 40's... Now your dropping center ice, assumingly to stop watching the wings, why? Because they're missing 1 or 2 pieces? Wow I guess you don't have time to wait around for the wings to get 'good' agist being 70 and all... Cancle your center ice and cancel your livefyre while your at it to... LGRW
If Kenny is waiting on Doan or Nash .. why? They are forwards .. OK they'd be nice. Even Semin or Ryan might be nice BUT we need a top 4 defenceman or two. I would have thought Carle would have been receiving his all out effort. Who is he waiting for? I hope he has something going or our D is going to be awful next season. Quite frankly, I don't think Kronwall is all that good and won't hold up without a good partner. Plus Kronwall has that history of being brittle. His first few years in the league he couldn't complete a season. Every time he'd make a big side-on hit his glass shoulder would break. Even broke a leg once, if remember. What happens if he goes out? Janik and Exelby are probably leaving for Europe. Who else is there in GR who could step up? Kenny may have "all summer" and he thinks "we like our team the way it looks" but he is not being realistic. Unless he is just feeding the media a line of crap and is holding his plans close to his vest .. we could be in big trouble. Maybe I'll just cancel my expensive Centre Ice package for the next couple of years. I thin I can do that up until mid-August without a penalty. Sad.
@garth Im not denying Yzerman made his team better, because he definitely did. And I know we're gonna have to pay to get quality talent. I'm not above that, but again, Im not trying to hand out a 2 year/$7.5 million dollar contract to a 37 year old, injury prone Sami Salo. We have enough aging talent. As for Carle, he may of had more points then Lidstrom, but he's nowhere near the same talent level. Hell, I don't think Carle is as good as Kronwall. His closest comparison, in my opinion, would be White