Changes Mean Changes
I have not heard anyone say that the Wings' roster is fine as is, though that doesn't mean those people don't exist. For those of us who get it, there still remain some people who don't seem to understand what making changes to the team means and, even if they do understand it, they don't realize how difficult trading is.
Jump for some Pro Tips from an amateur GM:
1: In order to make roster changes, there will be guys that you like that will be moved or not resigned. You like Abdelkader? That's nice. Me too. But guess what? He could be part of a package deal to land a guy who, hopefully, makes the team better.
7: I know you don't like Kindl or Emmerton and are willing to see them go, but you know what you'll get back for Kindl or Emmerton? A guy like Kindl or Emmerton. I'd like to have Rick Nash on this team, but there's no way he comes to Detroit for a fourth liner, a 7th defenseman and draft picks. That might work on EA Sports, but in real life, it doesn't.
9: Just because a guy leads your team in goals doesn't mean he's a great goal scorer. I could have the biggest penis in China. Big deal! If our best goal scorer only scored 20 goals would you guard his roster spot with your life? No, you wouldn't. Franzen is still an asset because of his low cap hit, but if he could be used in a trade to improve our goal scoring, that needs to happen.
10: We don't have to trade a forward for a forward. We're losing Stuart. That sucks. We may not sign an equivalent replacement. That sucks, too. But what if we could trade Hudler for a defenseman of equal value? Some teams have a ton of defensive depth, but not much scoring. IF the Wings sign the free agents on our wish lists, we could spare Hudler.
"But Hudler scored twice against Nashville!"
And Pavel scored once. So Hudler is more valuable than Pav? For every goal Hudler scored, he killed 5 chances by making a terrible pass. I'm fine with him on the third line or on the second line if needed because of injury, but if we think Hudler's production can't be replaced, get ready for golf every April.
"But I like him!"
See step Sawchuk.
12: NHL GM's are heartless, so be prepared to say "How could he let ____ go!?" Yes, Ken Holland was loyal to Malbty and Draper by not ditching them when many other teams would have, but he's also going to do whatever he can to help the team. I was reading a book about the 2002 Stanley Cup winning team a while back and I learned that Osgood and Holland were pretty good friends. Not just associates from the same company, but they were next-door neighbors on some lake in Canada during the summer. Osgood was still a good goalie in 2001, but that didn't stop Holland from trading for Hasek. Ozzie was pissed. He called Ken to yell at him and Ken says, "Chris, it's Hasek!" That's a gutsy thing to say to a friend/neighbor, but it was also true. We all loved Ozzie, but that trade made our team better. Hearts will be broken on the road to #12.
19: I'd give anything below Datsyuk/Zetterberg for a right-handed 40+ goal scorer, but that's just me.
I see a lot of people saying Cleary needs to go, and I guess I'm not sure why. If he goes and we get a new guy who fits better in his spot, great, I'm all for it, but honestly....I'm a big Cleary fan. If Cleary scored on all of his opportunities he could probably be a 30+ goal scorer, but those damn wide-open nets are tricky for him. I have to assume his misses are the reason people dislike him; so I must ask: would you rather have a guy who is getting chances to score 30+ goals and plays a great defensive game (haters will bring up game 5...shhhh!), or would you have a guy who is out there every game, making no difference, getting very few chances to score, and doesn't play a good support/grinder/penalty killer role on the team....such as Emmerton.
Another plus to Cleary is that he can play on any line, including PP and PK. If an injury were to occur to a 1st or 2nd liner, Cleary tends to be the first choice of Babcock to plug into those top lines.
After Draper retired Cleary seemed to have taken over as the mentor for the young guys (Helm, Miller, Abdelkader, Eaves, Emmerton), and I believe that he is next in line to receive the "A" on his jersey (not that my opinion means anything to the coaching staff).
Now, I haven't gone as in depth as to look into Cleary's cap hit, but I can't imagine that it is too absurd.
So, to summarize, Cleary's leadership, defensive play, and goal potential, are great assets to the team, which I doubt many other players available could match.
Thoughts? Arguments? Agreements?
Thought I'd stir up a little conversation, I miss talking about my Wings now that the season is over.
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@Tnhgeno the two options you gave us are crap in a paper bag or crap in a plastic bag. he's one of our better PK guys. ok. but our PK sucks. he has potential to score. but he didn't.
this is exactly why i'm saying changes need to happen. our best goal scorer is a poor example of a goal scorer. our best penalty killers are leading the way on a crappy PK. a guy who MIGHT be able to score 20 goals should not be on a scoring line.
as for his cap hit, 2.8 million isn't terrible, but it's a bit high for the 12 goals he scored. that's a drew miller number at val filppula prices.
@Tnhgeno You pretty much kill your argument in the first paragraph. He gets tonnes of chances and doesn't bury them, so I'd go for a guy who gets fewer chances and does score! His defensive play is ok, nothing special really, then again this season was shit all round for him.
I'm not for getting rid of him though, he's a good role player and this season he wasn't healthy but had to play because of all the other injuries.
I've added some new posts to my blog.
Any suggestions are welcome! :)
http://johnisjack.wordpress.com/
And I think that we are one game breaker away from a Stanley Cup. Most of the games we lose in the playoffs seem to be by 1 goal, if we could get someone who could pull through for us in those situations we'd be golden. A goal scorer like Parise would put us over the top.
@DetCapC19 Thanks so much man! I really appreciate you saying that. I've always wanted to try blogging after reading great blogs like this one and other Detroit Red Wings blogs.
Thanks! I aim to please! Keep checking for new posts, I'm trying to do 2 a day. Thanks again for reading :)
@gfa5eat1 @DetCapC19 I gotta tell ya I found your post about Bissonnette was hilarious. I went to high school with him while he was playing in the O, the dude is absolutely hilarious constantly
Parise..yes, nash...HELL NO!! his cap hit and contract length are scary, parise is a UFA and you can sign on better terms. Hudler can go back overseas. we would have to sign abby to trade him as hes a RFA.let stuart go trade the pylon ericsson and cleary too. no one wants bert, franzen signed a career deal as well as kronwall, they arent going anywhere.we are gonna sign helm, no question. so other than fil all there is left is bottom 6 players who we would get other bottom 6 players for. and # of those bottom 6 players are ones we are bringing up after spending years developing so....after lids holds us ransom again and homer hopefully retires we still have a big chunk of money to go shopping and maybe get parise, jackman, a young gritty forward, and hopefully a big giant Dman who can answer other teams goons.
I'm fine with Abbie going elsewhere. I'd hope we could keep Hudler, only because I think he's an excellent 2nd/3rd line guy. HERE'S TO PARISE NEXT YEAR!!!
Any body but euro twins helm and kronner Remember going through injuries two years ago and eaves played on the 2nd power play unit. And the top two lines? We should give him a chance at the rate he was going at that time he could've scored 25 goals just by having a very good gritty right handed shot. Look at Philly, Scott Hartnell wasn't much of a threat till he moved up to the top line. He's a beast now but still just a grinder. I remember also last year when Brian rolston was on waivers That we should've gotten him. What do u guys think?
@Matthew_ruta Hartnell had pretty good numbers prior to this year (even dating back to his Nashville days): http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=31033
Rolston's salary was $5M which is why he went unclaimed at the start of the season.
Speaking of that right-handed 40+ goal scorer - does Bobby Ryan get put back on the market again this summer?
@Matthew_ruta I liked our PP more when Eaves was on it.
Also, I would definitely place Hartnell in the "Power Forward" classification, not grinder.
Hudler is a UFA this offseason, so I don't think we can count on him as trade bait or even being on our team. For whatever NHL.com is worth, I read there yesterday that Hudler is seriously considering not resigning but trying the free agent market as he feels this season really up'd his value (apparently considering asking in the $5m ballpark).
@D.M.N Haha, I didn't know what to do my first post on.. so I got creative. But but about my other articles?
@gfa5eat1 honestly... i didnt read them.... but even if i did my opinion means nothing. Do what you want and if it makes you happy... fuck what other people think. tell you what though, if youd like for a small fee i can troll your message boards for you... no blog is complete with out a troll.
Hey everyone.. I've been a follower of this blog for a long time and I just set my own up! I'd be much obliged if you took a peek at it. Thanks so much and great article Ryan!
I think Z and Dats are staying AND Kronwall AND Ericsson. I don't really see Hudler or Cleary going. I see Holmstrom signing a two-way contract like Maltby did which gives flexibility. Who knows what's going to happen to Eaves, he could easily "turn it on" I suspect. He's had his moments and I bet you, if he was pushed or "got it" he could be a 2nd liner perhaps. No? He's that underrated right hander...
I don't know... I know everyone is really pumping up Parise and Sutter but there is something about those two that make me balk a bit. I just would hate to the wings overpay for either of them and I think they would both want long contracts. I just feel like they maybe are a bit of a gamble. We're already lamenting a bit of Franzen's long contract and if we had two or three of those types, except at a higher salary, we'd be hurting for sure. I think passing on those two (unless they really go cheap and at a reasonable length which shows they want to come to D for the right reasons) and making a run during the 2013 UFAs would be better. Just looking at some of the names in there we have Iginla, Backstrom, Perry, Getzlaf, Andy McDonald, Mike Fisher, Jordan Staal, Robyn Regehr, Ryan Clowe, Nathan Horton...etc, etc. Take a look for yourself on cap geek her:
http://capgeek.com/free_agents.php?year_id=2013&team_id=-1&position_id=-1&fa_type_id=2
Personally, some of the names there interest me a lot more than Parise and Sutter. But I'm not a GM... I think it's more realistic that the wings get someone like Arnott or Gaustad this summer. Someone big, gritty, can score, win faceoffs. I don't really think we need too much for next year to be honest. I think we just had an unfortunate outing in April.
@teddywings "want to come to D for the right reasons"
I think for all we talk as fans about players needing to be here for the right reasons, people switch teams to either win Cups or make more money, preferably both. Frankly, I don't give a rip why a player comes to Detroit as long as he performs to his salary and plays with character.
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@teddywings we're much further away from the cup than another 3rd/4th line center.
and i'm fine with semin, too. just not instead of parise.
@Twig But don't you think we had too many off years from too many people? Cleary, Franzen, even White in the second half... Then we have people emerging too like Eaves, Ny, Fil, and maybe even Abby. I just felt like too many things went bad all around the same time for us not to be good again next year, and I really don't think we need THAT much. I see it as past performance doesn't predict future performance.
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Well if you want to draw parallels from unrelated topics such as the stock market... I could counter and say those who forget history are doomed to repeat it. Forget their last 3 under whelming playoff performances and go into next year with the pretty much same roster and we're back to golf in April…
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@teddywings @Twig "I see it as past performance doesn't predict future performance."
tell that to a statistician...
Also, I think Alexander Semin would be a lot better than Parise. He is definitely that right-handed, 40 goal scorer you mentioned....
: "I'd give anything below Datsyuk/Zetterberg for a right-handed 40+ goal scorer, but that's just me."
Yeah... not sure i want to read a blog called NYghtmare on elm street... or anthing else equally unclever
I would love to part with guys like Franzen, Cleary, and Quincey on draft night. I say do what the Flyers did, trade those guys while they have any sort of value and draft a powerful forward that can step in on day one, similar to what Philly did with Couturier. I also think both Zach Parise AND Ryan Suter should be our top priorities. If I'm Kenny, I do everything in my power to try to convince both of them to come to Detroit. However, I would be content with landing just one of those guys. Let guys like Homer, Stuart, and Hudler walk--there's no point in keeping guys around for nostalgic reasons, unless you're content with no longer making the Playoffs. Homer may have been our best Power Play specialist over the years, but this is a team that clearly needs to get much younger and much deeper. You won't do that by bringing those three guys back (Stuart is as good as gone, anyway). Sign Pavel Kubina. I know I'm stressing getting younger, but Kubina won't command a lot of money and he's a fucking MONUMENT. He's terrific at blocking shots and IMO, that's exactly what our defense needs. Bring guys like Tomas Tatar and Calle Jarnkrok into training camp. I don't care how small Jarnkrok is, he's easily our best prospect right now--I can see the Wings' top brass wanting to mold him and Jurco into our future Datsyuk and Zetterberg. This team desperately needs some young blood and I don't see how it would hurt to at least bring in Tatar and Jarnkrok to compete for a third or fourth line position.
I could not agree more! Anybody but Datsyuk/Zetterberg is on the chopping block depending on who's available and what we have to offer.
This is my "Summer 2012 Retooling Wish List"
1.) Lidstrom coming back
2.) Signing at least 1 big time free agent (Parise or Suter)
3.) Stuart deciding to stay
4.) Getting rid of Cleary and/or Hudler to get bigger and stronger
5.) Making room for our 2 top prospects in Smith and Nyquist
@Twig @marti783 Just a thought on Stuart:
1. His step-daughter has 1 more year before she can leave the state
2. Stuart did indicate that it will come down to him moving closer to home or "sucking it up for 1 more year"
3. LA has 7-dmen signed for next season, so unless they make a move (not out of the question at all), they may not be able to sign him
4. SJ has $8.7M in cap space and need to sign 6-7 forwards and at least 2 d-men so I'm not sure they could pay Stuart even $3M let alone anything close to what he's worht ($4-4.5M?).
5. I guess that leaves Anaheim. He'd be a lot closer to his family but its not LA. Anaheim also has ~$15M committed to their d-core already and only has 6 forwards signed next year. They do have $23M in cap space to fill it out.
6. So I guess my question is - does Stuart take a lot less money to play in SJ or LA or does he deal with it for 1 more year? And would he prefer to play in the gong show that is Anaheim or suck it up for 1 more year?
I think he's gone but I'm not so sure he's a lock to leave Detroit for California just yet.
By my math, we have $21,724,622 in cap space based on our current 1-way deals. We've got 14 players signed (pretty much 2 fwds per line, 2 extra fwds, 4 d, and 2 g):
Franzen/Pav, Fil/Z, Cleary/Bert, Miller/Eaves with Emmerton/Mursak as extras. On D we have Rig, Kronner, White, and Kindl. In goal we have Howard and Mac.
Add in Nyquist and Smith @ $875K each and we've got just under $20M in cap space.
I figure Helm, Abby, and Quincey will cost us ~$7.5M to sign so by my math, we've got $12,474,622 in space to add a top 6 winger and a top 4 d-man.
Moving Kindl would give us $13,307,955 to go sign Suter and Parise but I'm not sure that gets it done. This is also based on the cap remaing at $64.3M which is unlikely (I figure it will go up, but with the new CBA coming in, it may be a stretch to think that it will remain as high as it has been).
But if Nik comes back and we focus our attention on Parise, we could have a lineup that looks like this:
Franzen-Pav-Parise
Filppula-Zetterberg-Nyquist
Cleary-Helm-Bertuzzi
Miller-Abdelkader-Eaves
Lidstrom-Ericsson
Kronwall-Smith
Quincey-White
Howard
MacDonald
I could probably live with that.
Keep in mind: Cleary and White's $2.8M cap hits come off the books after next season, as does Howards $2.25M (who would require a raise I presume).
Fil's $3M is also up. I think Miller's $887K would be off as well. And while I'm at it, I think Nyquist and Smith would be RFAs that summer.
I don't see giving Q or Abby that much $ (that is IF Abdelkader comes back) - they are both RFAs next season, so either have to take the deal given by Detroit, or go to arbitration. For what Quincey will be doing here, I do not see him moving up more than 125k. Abdelkader will be lucky to get 1M, and Helm will probably get 1.2M or something to that tune.
If they feel Hudler is a valuable asset, he'll be back for probably the same amount and Homer will likely be gone. If Stuart leaves, that leaves an opening for Smith, and hopefully Ericsson can become a defensive stalwart.
We're probably going to rock the Nyquist/Datsyuk/Franzen line out of the gate, leaving Z with Filps and a new guy. Put Bertuzzi/Helm/Miller, and Cleary/Abdelkader/Emmerton-Sheahan
This is insanely difficult to figure out seeing as the next CBA is still in the works - so we might not even get a 12-13 season...
Holland just bit into a sour grape it looks like.
I want Parise, very, very badly. And some good D-men because we're losing Stuart, Quincey was terrible and Nick (I know I may be burned alive for this) just may be leaving. Franzen has the ability to be a game-changer when he's on it but I'm happy either way it works out, keep him and we've got a good threat or ditch him and Hudler and get something more reliable in return (ie NOT a guy like Marleau or Pavelski).
It's tough, but in the end I trust Ken Holland.
" I could have the biggest penis in China. Big deal!" HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
Good post.
I'm looking forward to seeing what the Wings do this summer. Darren Dreger from TSN was saying that we did kick the tires on Nash at the deadline but it didnt make sense to do it at that time and that we would revisit it during the off-season.
I could not agree more! Anybody but Datsyuk/Zetterberg is on the chopping block depending on who's available.
i can't tell you all how thrilled i was to find that terrible picture of ken holland. #BecauseItsFunny
@Twig What's the context? It looks like he just watched a video of someone getting kicked in the nuts.
@Twig my second guess was a Hudler miscue at the blue line followed by a shorty against.
